[Yoda]

Illegal immigrants are invading the United States. The impact on the economy, the health care system, politics and a myriad of other consequences is never ending as a result of our not stopping illegal immigration. Who is to blame? First and foremost we are to blame for not holding our congressmen in Washington D.C. responsible and accountable. They are our representatives and we must let them know that they must do more to end this invasion and end it now.

[Jason Vines]

Illegal immigrants take jobs no one else wants for less pay. Stopping the "invasion," as you call it, would eliminate that source of labor, thereby increasing the cost of many of the things you buy. And it could even threaten our economy.

Indulging the paranoia of a few people, like Bill O'Reilly, isn't worth the financial and economic price we'd have to pay.

[Yoda]

They need to file a application and take the U.S. Citizens test learn to read, write and speak english. Learn the principles of the constitution,U.S. history, government structure and take the oath of allegiance. It's not fare to the people that came here and did the right thing. My grandparents and relatives came here from Germany and they became U.S. Citizens the correct and honest way. German people are honest, decent and hard working, They would not think of sneaking across they border and bring drugs . They should not get special treatment just so they can work here. They should do the right thing like everyone else.

[Sim]

Quote

German people are honest, decent and hard working, ...

True.

Unless they are Nazis.

[Rush]

lol Sim, that is the same thing i was thinking.

Yoda it is really hard to tell if you are serious or if you are joking because that last post made me laugh. What makes you think that the immagrants that come to this country arent hard working or honest? it is the american pp in my opinion that are neither. They take the jobs for less and get ass raped while doing it so that WE can have products for cheaper and WE dont have to do the work that we see as undesirable. Exploitation my friend..

[Yoda]

Millions of (UNDOCUMENTED) Mexicans pour across our borders. It cost California $10.5 annually, that is not counting other states. Illegal means illegal. They should do it legal, like every other person that comes to this country. It's not fair to the people who do things right. We need to enforce the laws we have. Why should we have laws if we don't enforce them. We don't know if they are DRUG SMUGGLERS, CRIMINALS, PEDOPHILES, TERRORIST or worse. Since 911 we should not let just anyone walk across our borders. I feel sympathy for them, most of them are honest and hard working but we must be sure of that.

This post has been edited by Yoda: 30 October 2005 - 01:53 PM

[Yoda]

""sorry" I posted in the wrong forum. I should be in the joker forum. I'm glad I could make you laugh. Maybe I can get on Letterman or Leno.

[Sim]

Since I have no information on this topic, could someone please explain to me: Are there reasons why these immigrants come into the US illegally? Maybe they can't get into the US legally, maybe they aren't allowed to do that. What are the creterias for accepting immigrants?

[Jason Vines]

Sim, on Oct 31 2005, 03:13 PM, said:

Since I have no information on this topic, could someone please explain to me: Are there reasons why these immigrants come into the US illegally? Maybe they can't get into the US legally, maybe they aren't allowed to do that. What are the creterias for accepting immigrants?

The process is complicated. Here's a page from a US government website that describes one avenue for legal immigration, which would concern most immigrants: How Do I Apply for Immigrant Status Based on Employment?

The difficulty of immigration, in concert with immigrant quotas (700,000 immigrants can enter the country each year), means many illegals probably couldn't enter the country legally even if they wanted to do so.

[Joshua]

Yoda, do you mean to say that hispanics are lazy and dishonest? Because it sure sounds like it.

And while you're saying that Germans are all honest decent hardworking people, I would like to inform you that during WWII my entire family except for 1 person was killed by your honest hard-working decent people.

Now, let us consider the effect immigrants have on our economy. During the 1950's, the United States government started a program called Operation Wetback (this is its true name, I am in no way using a derogatory slur) and sent 500,000 illegal hispanic immigrants back to Mexico. LESS THAN ONE MONTH LATER the economy was in the dumps, and the government had to send ambassadors over to Mexico to recruit the same people they had kicked out to work the positions they had been removed from.

Now, let us look at the humanitarian side of the argument. These people live in such poverty and misery that they are willing to risk their lives and the lives of their family members to make a dangerous journey through hostile territory to work a job so poor that no other americans are willing to work it. In fact, many of the working positions nessecary for the american economy to survive are so rancid that the companies have to go down to Mexico and bring illegal immigrants into the country just to keep the industry going. The legal immigration process admits a very small number of the people wanting to immigrate to america. The process is a long and complicated series of tests that even require potential immigrants to prove they are currently employed. News flash: The number one reason Mexicans illegally cross the border is to get opportunities that do not exist in their country. By the very nature of the test, the people who need to immigrate the most are the people denied the opportunity.

The concepts of "we need to enfore our laws" and "why have the laws if we don't enforce them" are what kept the Jim Crow laws active in the south for so long. Just because it has been signed into law does not make it right. Hell, our very own constitution said that Black people count only as 3/5 of a person.

The neo-conservative policy of "stopping the invasion" is what sent a boat full of desperate Jewish immigrants back to Germany where they were exterminated by your honest, hardworking people in the 1940s.

This post has been edited by Jason Vines: 10 November 2005 - 07:52 PM

[Jason Vines]

Joshua, on Nov 10 2005, 06:23 PM, said:

And while you're saying that Germans are all honest decent hardworking people, I would like to inform you that during WWII my entire family except for 1 person was killed by your honest hard-working decent people.

Don't blame all Germans for the Holocaust. Believe it or not, most Germans during the Third Reich were decent people. Unfortunately, as the 18th century English MP Edmund Burke said, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

Nothing demonstrates that more than Nazi Germany. Adolf Hitler transformed Germany from an impoverished and humiliated nation into a wealthy and proud superpower, so in gratitude, the Germans persuaded themselves not to notice the most evil crimes of the Nazi regime.

[Joshua]

I know, mate. And I don't mean to paint with a broad brush. But so long as someone is going to insult the integrity of hispanics and cite Germans as all individuals, I think it's only fair to remind everyone of the hideous crimes of a percentage of the german population.

[Yoda]

I am proud of my German heritage and proud of my German grandparents who are not responsible for the things that Hitler did. It is ignorant to hold a grudge against German people for what Hitler did.

[Jason Vines]

Yoda, on Nov 10 2005, 11:30 PM, said:

I am proud of my German heritage and proud of my German grandparents who are not responsible for the things that Hitler did. It is ignorant to hold a grudge against German people for what Hitler did.

Josh has a point, though: If you're going to paint incoming Hispanics as drug dealers, pedophiles, terrorists, or worst, then other crass generalizations come to mind, too.

[Yoda]

You are twisting everything around that I said. You need to go back and read it again and you will see that I said that we need to be sure that they are not drug dealers, pedophiles or worst. And I did not say all Mexicans were bad. We need to know who is entering this country. If they are undocumented, we don't know who they are. Did you forget 9-11 ? We can't have just anybody walk across our borders. It's a good way for terrorist to enter. I don't care what country they are from, they should do things the legal way. Why is it fair for everyone else to have to fill out U.S. Citizenship papers and not them? I don't have anything against Mexican people. I have been to 15 cities in Mexico. I love to vacation in Mexico. But we have laws and everything has changed since 9-11.

This post has been edited by Jason Vines: 11 November 2005 - 08:09 AM

[Joshua]

No, 9/11 changed nothing. It was a horrific tragedy, and Republicans with no ethics use it as an excuse to push their neo-conservative ideas. You don't realize that republicans are making Bin Laden win. You don't understand the point of what they did. You like to think that it was a random act of hatred. IT WASN'T. It was very carefully planned, and republicans have made sure that everything goes according to plan. You think Bin Laden just wanted to kill some Americans? The point of the attack was to inspire fear and start a war. Bin Laden, in case you hadn't noticed, does not care how many of his people die. He wants only the downfall of america. That's why he chose to strike how he did. No president could possibly do nothing after such an attack, and thus Bin Laden drew us into the war he had always wanted. Bush unknowingly played into his plan with the war in Afghanistan. Then Bush took it a step further, much to Bin Laden's delight, i'm sure. He invaded Iraq. Then he started to restrict individual freedoms here in America by tighter border patrol, the PATRIOT act, and hundreds of thousands of invasions of personal privacy. Now America is involved in a war on a concept, and thus it cannot win. Now America has started to deprive its citizens of its constitutional rights. Now America has wasted hundreds of billions of dollars fighting an insurgency that only grows stronger in zeal the more we damage them. America has united the muslim people against it. America's economy is in the dumps. Bush has made Bin Laden's dreams come true. In playing into Bin Ladens plans and violating the constitutional rights of citizens, Bush has done more damage to America than any militant with a plane ever could.

Using 9/11 to push a neo-conservative agenda is utterly dispicable. Thanks to conservatives, the tragic s of thousands is now nothing more than a political weapon you level at anyone who stands for civil rights.

[Jason Vines]

The discussion thus far ignores the primary reason for illegal immigration from Mexico: the poverty and hardship in that country. Mexicans face such adversity they'll risk death to reach the United States and take jobs no American would want. As history has shown, no matter how much we police our southern border, the yearning of the desperate for better lives will overcome all obstacles.

Only if Mexico improves its economy and quality of life will we ever stop having problems with illegal immigration. (Consider, streams of Canadians don't flow across our northern border, since they enjoy prosperity.) So Americans who despise illegal immigration should concentrate their efforts on helping our neighbor to the south instead of devising policies that would cripple American businesses without solving anything.

EDIT: Reading back over the thread, Josh touched on this. I'm saying, though, this needs to be the main focus of any conversation about illegal immigration.

This post has been edited by Jason Vines: 12 November 2005 - 01:27 PM

[Bondo]

I used to be quite liberal on immigration, but i've become much more conservative over the last few years. The fence (particularly the double fence with sensors between) is fine with me, and I'm less enthusiastic about the amnesty program.

Now Arnold Schwarzenegger has opened his mouth (link is to the full speech and Q&A) and people are upset.

What is wrong with what Arnold said? That seems like the most innocuous and reasonable thing you can say about immigration. He wasn't even saying that you *have* to assimilate. He's just saying that you will be more successful if you do.

Coverage of a debate between minor party California governor candidates a libertarian (who seems a little nuts) and a green here.

[Jason Vines]

Bondo, on Oct 8 2006, 08:41 PM, said:

Now Arnold Schwarzenegger has opened his mouth (link is to the full speech and Q&A) and people are upset.

What is wrong with what Arnold said? That seems like the most innocuous and reasonable thing you can say about immigration. He wasn't even saying that you *have* to assimilate. He's just saying that you will be more successful if you do.

Call me weird, but I think if you emigrate to another country, then you have a responsibility to learn its language and culture. And you have a duty to integrate yourself into national life. Anything else would be ungrateful selfishness.

[Sim]

Jason Vines, on Oct 27 2006, 06:00 AM, said:

Call me weird, but I think if you emigrate to another country, then you have a responsibility to learn its language and culture. And you have a duty to integrate yourself into national life. Anything else would be ungrateful selfishness.

I agree. No one asks the immigrants to give up their culture. But the least thing you can expect from them is to learn English and getting familiar with American values.