[Bondo]

Jason Vines, on Oct 26 2006, 11:00 PM, said:

Call me weird, but I think if you emigrate to another country, then you have a responsibility to learn its language and culture. And you have a duty to integrate yourself into national life. Anything else would be ungrateful selfishness.

Yup, it is one thing if they want to preserve their cultural identity, but it is another when they want to come here and then change the rest of us.

And things aren't going to well on the border either. It seems they don't know what they want. They clamor for a border fence, but when they seem on the verge of getting it, they start complaining.

Border fence plan worries Texas ranchers

Quote

But not, some say, with a double-layer, $6 billion fence cutting through their land and keeping them and their livestock from the river.

"It's not going to work in Texas," said Michael Vickers, who owns a cattle ranch on the border. "Who wants to close off the river to Mexico? The river is the lifeblood for a lot of cities."

Vickers said he worries that either his land will be cut off from the rest of the state and the country or he will lose access to 50 acres of water rights he has and can sell to area municipalities for up to $2,000 an acre.

"I'd be in a DMZ-type zone, in between two countries," Vickers said.

The DMZ. So people are worried about crime and mexicans threatening their families or just being a nuisance. They don't want them crossing their land. But they don't want the fence on their land either.

Okay. I think this is one of those cases where crying, "not in my backyard" will not save you.

This post has been edited by Bondo: 29 October 2006 - 12:57 PM

[Yoda]

our government should get illegal ailiens out of the country, control our borders, stop allowing people into our country who could be a danger in many ways to the American citizens. Stop making us second-class citizens in our own country. What part of " illegal" don't they understand? There should not be illegal individuals entering and residing in our country.

[Jason Vines]

Yoda, on Mar 10 2007, 02:57 PM, said:

our government should get illegal ailiens out of the country

Ethnic cleansing--it's not just for tin-pot dictators and religious kooks anymore! Now, some Americans advocate it as part of a "sensible" immigration policy. Next on the agenda is to change the State of Liberty's inscription:

Quote

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
Except for dirty Mexicans,
They can go home!

Yoda said:

control our borders

The Russians know how to build fences and walls. Maybe we could ask them for assistance.


Berlin Wall

Yoda said:

stop allowing people into our country who could be a danger in many ways to the American citizens

Immigrants are less likely to commit crimes than native-born Americans.

Portraying illegal immigrants as "dangerous" is populist fear-mongering to deflect attention from America's homegrown problems.

Yoda said:

Stop making us second-class citizens in our own country.

That doesn't even make sense. How does someone coming into this country to improve his well-being affect your rights and liberties as an American citizen?

Yoda said:

What part of " illegal" don't they understand?

Just because something is against the law doesn't make it wrong.

At one time, in some regions of the country, for blacks to attend the same schools as whites was illegal. For blacks to marry whites was illegal. For blacks to demand the same service as whites from public businesses and government agencies was illegal. And yet for blacks to do any of these things was never wrong.

Similarly, for a Mexican to want a better life for himself and/or his family isn't wrong. Americans are the ones who are wrong to try to stop him from entering into a mutually beneficial arrangement with an employer in this country. All he wants is the same opportunity for prosperity and liberty millions of our ancestors had before we implemented immigration quotas.

[Sam Cogley]

Jason Vines, on Nov 11 2005, 08:05 PM, said:

The discussion thus far ignores the primary reason for illegal immigration from Mexico: the poverty and hardship in that country. Mexicans face such adversity they'll risk death to reach the United States and take jobs no American would want. As history has shown, no matter how much we police our southern border, the yearning of the desperate for better lives will overcome all obstacles.

Only if Mexico improves its economy and quality of life will we ever stop having problems with illegal immigration. (Consider, streams of Canadians don't flow across our northern border, since they enjoy prosperity.) So Americans who despise illegal immigration should concentrate their efforts on helping our neighbor to the south instead of devising policies that would cripple American businesses without solving anything.

EDIT: Reading back over the thread, Josh touched on this. I'm saying, though, this needs to be the main focus of any conversation about illegal immigration.

And if we keep propping up the corrupt government and society prevalent in Mexico by allowing illegal immigrants to send billions of dollars south each year, nothing will ever change there. They need to clean up their own house.

I'm all for expanded legal immigration. But letting anyone and everyone waltz across the border is insane. Hell, look at Mexico's own immigration laws. They want us to take anyone who will walk across the border, but their own rules are astonishingly restrictive. The worst sort of hypocrites possible.

[Sim]

@Jason:

As appropriate the Berlin Wall comparison may be in many regards, it is lacking insofar as Germany was a devided people which belonged together, while Mexicans i.e. are not the same people as US-Americans, neither want they to be.

And unfortunately, limiting immigration is a necessity. If everybody came to Germany who wants to live here, we would soon have the conditions as described in apocalyptic scenarios painted by anti-Muslim bigots: Our society would sink into anarchy and civil war due to cultural frictions, dominance of immigrants who don't share our cultural identity and values, vast poverty for large parts of society.

We simply cannot afford unlimited immigration, and we have to protect our borders from illegal immigrants, even with Berlin-Wall-like measures if necessary -- as unfortunate that may be for those willing to start a better life here. But our resources simply do not suffice to make everybody happy on our cost who may wish that. Also, there is no human right on living in Germany.

Many people here think Germany has reached its maximum capacity for immigration. If we allow even more immigration by low-qualified and culturally dubious people, social and cultural problems will intensify and reach intolerable levels.

And I agree with that observation. Before we can allow any more people in, we have to solve these problems.

[Bondo]

Hazleton, Pennsylvania is currently defending its anti-illegal immigrant laws in court.

I'd like to see a town (or more likely, state) just throw illegals in prison based on the "non-citizens don't have rights" terrorism argument.

[Jason Vines]

Sam Cogley said:

They want us to take anyone who will walk across the border, but their own rules are astonishingly restrictive. The worst sort of hypocrites possible.

The stupid laws of other countries should not dictate our own policies. We shouldn't hurt our economy just because they do.

Besides which, how many Americans do you know who want to emigrate to Mexico?

Sam Cogley said:

I'm all for expanded legal immigration. But letting anyone and everyone waltz across the border is insane.

I agree, we need to know who is entering this country. And liberalizing immigration laws so anyone who isn't a criminal could come here to work, thereby almost eliminating the incentive to sneak across our borders, would be the best way to accomplish that.

I must reiterate, though, most illegal immigrants aren't otherwise criminals. They just want the American dream of better lives for themselves and their families.

[Jason Vines]

Sim said:

As appropriate the Berlin Wall comparison may be in many regards, it is lacking insofar as Germany was a devided people which belonged together, while Mexicans i.e. are not the same people as US-Americans, neither want they to be.

I don't view that as a significant difference. Humans are humans, regardless of whence they come. If Mexicans want to work here because they can make more money than they could at home, I see no reason to begrudge that just because they're not Americans. That is especially the case upon considering many Americans would never perform the kinds of jobs immigrants do with resolve.

And I especially don't see the need for a humongous wall.

Sim said:

And unfortunately, limiting immigration is a necessity. If everybody came to Germany who wants to live here, we would soon have the conditions as described in apocalyptic scenarios painted by anti-Muslim bigots: Our society would sink into anarchy and civil war due to cultural frictions, dominance of immigrants who don't share our cultural identity and values, vast poverty for large parts of society.

That didn't happen to America during its immigration boom during the 19th and early 20th centuries. It's not happening to America now during its so-called "illegal immigration crisis." Why would it happen to Germany?

By the way, in the 19th century, European monarchists and other opponents of liberty thought the scenario of which you speak would afflict the United States. And, even as late as the mid-20th century, the Axis governments believed Americans couldn't wield enough power to oppose the Axis because their multiculturalism would divide them against themselves. The United States proved both assessments incorrect.

So maybe pessimism about what immigration can do to a country isn't warranted. Perhaps Europeans should welcome immigration, both to let diversity strengthen them and to reverse their population losses.

Sim said:

But our resources simply do not suffice to make everybody happy on our cost who may wish that.

That's an argument for curtailing the welfare state, which is another topic, not for stonewalling immigration.

[Sam Cogley]

I think the best way to deal with the illegal immigration problem is to cut off the source - deal VERY harshly with those who knowingly (or reasonably should have known) hire illegal immigrants.

[Little Sheba]

Sam Cogley, on Apr 13 2007, 03:04 AM, said:

I think the best way to deal with the illegal immigration problem is to cut off the source - deal VERY harshly with those who knowingly (or reasonably should have known) hire illegal immigrants.

And what will that do then? NOTHING...it will not solve your problem...at all.

..this planet is getting smaller all the time and the united states of america's people are not so united after all it seems, and from many outsiders point of view this is but only the start of a world upset with an ever more neo-nazi like police state policys in the current regime/goverment of america.

The US of A better stop attacking soverign peoples and wake up and realise they are in the middle of a hornets nests with its very own peoples and the world as a whole,
Sadly it is all ever since GWBush destroyed the good will and goodness, and TRUST... and sympathy that the USA had after 9/11, and for all it once stood for in the eyes of the world.

The so called Illegal immigration in the US is only the beggining of the battle over the rightious demands of world wide freedom of downtrodden peoples rights, which they will get one way or another and no gate or wall is going to stop it in America or elsewhere.

This post has been edited by Little Sheba: 12 April 2007 - 04:47 PM

[Yoda]

I don't know why they all want to come to a horrible place like America. We all Suck here. Maybe we should send them all to New Zealand. They know how to solve every problem. How many illegal immigrants do you have?

[Sam Cogley]

Little Sheba, on Apr 12 2007, 04:06 PM, said:

Sam Cogley, on Apr 13 2007, 03:04 AM, said:

I think the best way to deal with the illegal immigration problem is to cut off the source - deal VERY harshly with those who knowingly (or reasonably should have known) hire illegal immigrants.

And what will that do then? NOTHING...it will not solve your problem...at all.

Cut off the jobs, they have no reason to immigrate illegally. They can then use the legal channels, which should be greatly expanded.

What are New Zealand's laws on immigration and citizenship?

Quote

The so called Illegal immigration in the US is only the beggining of the battle over the rightious demands of world wide freedom of downtrodden peoples rights, which they will get one way or another and no gate or wall is going to stop it in America or elsewhere.

Good grief...yes, let's drag the whole world down to a third-world standard of life. Great plan. How about we start with New Zealand?

[Little Sheba]

Yoda, on Apr 13 2007, 10:25 AM, said:

I don't know why they all want to come to a horrible place like America. We all Suck here. Maybe we should send them all to New Zealand. They know how to solve every problem. How many illegal immigrants do you have?

Very low numbers...probably because we are rather off the beaten path...so to speak, though we may be a small freedom loving nation with a fair immigration policie, the sad point in truth is.... no society is perfect!, All that I was trying to get across in my words mostly directed to the nice american's in particular is to beware that you do not lose your liberty's!!!

Many think now just how sad it is about a country such as yours, once the very flower and symbol of freedom, truth, and libertys for it to be so deeply involved now in the muck and mire of deceit and lies purpetrated by your lying Commander in Chief.

Why did you not permit Bill Clinton to stay on as President???

He was and still is loved by all people's world-wide, both he and the one who really won the 2000 u.s. presidential ellection President Al Gore.

Well good on ya if you at least think about repealing that silly law of yours have on presidential term limits!?

Here's why and nothing personal against all you good hearted americans...President Bush Jr is your worst president in the last 150 years from what I have read and seen by his actions, I truly and honestly feel sorry for the good citizens of the still noble at heart USA!, and hope they find the greatness they once had, and renew the words of your "eeb-plab-nee-sta"...with meaning again.

peace.

This post has been edited by Little Sheba: 13 April 2007 - 12:05 AM

[Jason Vines]

Little Sheba, on Apr 12 2007, 05:06 PM, said:

And what will that do then? NOTHING...it will not solve your problem...at all.

..this planet is getting smaller all the time and the united states of america's people are not so united after all it seems, and from many outsiders point of view this is but only the start of a world upset with an ever more neo-nazi like police state policys in the current regime/goverment of america.

The US of A better stop attacking soverign peoples and wake up and realise they are in the middle of a hornets nests with its very own peoples and the world as a whole,
Sadly it is all ever since GWBush destroyed the good will and goodness, and TRUST... and sympathy that the USA had after 9/11, and for all it once stood for in the eyes of the world.

The so called Illegal immigration in the US is only the beggining of the battle over the rightious demands of world wide freedom of downtrodden peoples rights, which they will get one way or another and no gate or wall is going to stop it in America or elsewhere.

Now that you have that out of your system, do you feel better? Do you believe you have accomplished anything? Do you think anyone who doesn't already agree with you would find your post compelling?

If, upon honest reflection, you cannot answer "yes" to all of those questions, then maybe you should reconsider how you approached your message.

Speaking for myself, I agree with you on "illegal" immigration. I agree the United States government is trodding down a dark, though not "neo-Nazi," path. And I found your post needlessly inflammatory and inconducive to good discussion. It wasn't compelling.

Little Sheba, on Apr 12 2007, 09:27 PM, said:

Why did you not permit Bill Clinton to stay on as President???

The 22nd Amendment.

[Little Sheba]

Jason, and Yoda, no mean hearted spirit meant...please read my posted reply to Yoda in #33?

Wouldn't you agree with me there at least to a degree? or not...

I thought it was spot on without being mean...I am sorry if it came across any other way.

[Sim]

Jason Vines, on Apr 11 2007, 04:20 AM, said:

I don't view that as a significant difference. Humans are humans, regardless of whence they come. If Mexicans want to work here because they can make more money than they could at home, I see no reason to begrudge that just because they're not Americans. That is especially the case upon considering many Americans would never perform the kinds of jobs immigrants do with resolve.

And I especially don't see the need for a humongous wall.

I agree, there is absolutely no reason to begrudge these people, especially when that is done with racist undertones. They are just looking for a better life. And neither am I advocating a "homongous wall". The problems arising from excessive immigration are not an individual problem single individuals should be blamed for, but collective problems.

But in some countries, probably more so in Europe than America (especially the 18th, 19th and early 20th century America), unlimited immigration causes a vast amount of social, economical and cultural problems. That is why it's legitimate, and also necessary, to limit immigration, in order to ease these problems, IMHO.

When state A has a system that guarantees civil and human rights, that does not include the right of any person from country B to immigrate to country A. There is no human right on living in a country of your choice, or even to citizenship of that country.

That's why I say we shouldn't blame the immigrants. They are just looking for a better life, which is nothing we can blame them for. But we do have to enforce our laws limiting immigration. I agree with Sam: Let's punish companies illegally hiring illegal immigrants. And when we find illegals, we have to send them back home; no hard feelings against them.

Quote

That didn't happen to America during its immigration boom during the 19th and early 20th centuries. It's not happening to America now during its so-called "illegal immigration crisis." Why would it happen to Germany?

Because you cannot compare today's Germany to 19th and early 20th century America: Back then in America, there was plenty of cheap land available and demand for labour. This is not the case in today's Germany: The unemployment rate is rather high, especially when it comes to low qualified jobs. We cannot afford burdening our labour market, where even many low-qualified Germans don't find a job, with an unlimited flux of competition. If our government did that, it would not protect the interest of its souvereign, the German people.

Also, cultural problems arising from immigration by a different civilization were very limited in America, since by far most immigrants came from Europe. And many of them shared the dream of freedom, thus supporting the political order. Even today, immigration to America is hardly problematical regarding cultural problems, since most immigrants are Latin American Catholics, who speak a European language (Spanish) and generally share Western values.

Again, that is not the case in Germany and most of Western Europe: The largest group of immigrants are Muslims here. Many of them have a homogenous and strong idea of their culture which often contradicts Western values and our idea of a free society. Experience over the past decades has shown that, while certainly our societies could have done more to integrate them, many of them stick to their culture and won't embrace our society, living in "parallel societies" instead of participating in our society. A large number of social and political problems have arisen from that, such as radical islamism, politically and culturally motivated crime, etc pp. This causes high costs for our societies; these problems are very expensive. I don't see why taxpayers should be burdened with these costs.

While I think those American authors painting Europe about becoming a "Muslim califate" due to radical Muslim immigrants, don't know the first thing about Europe and our problems with Muslim immigrants, exaggerating the situation entirely out of proportion, I still believe we *do* have problems with Muslim immigrants. And those problems have to be addressed.

But we cannot address these problems by allowing unlimited immigration from these countries. If we did that, we would indeed have a "Muslim califate of Germany" within a few decades, and the completely exaggerated concerns of these American righties about Europe would become true.

Also, criminality is much higher among immigrants, because we simply don't have enough labour for them -- they sink into poverty, which causes crime, which then burdens not only the immigrants but the native Germans as well, and which causes additional high costs for our society. We cannot afford pouring fuel into that fire, at the moment.

Quote

By the way, in the 19th century, European monarchists and other opponents of liberty thought the scenario of which you speak would afflict the United States. And, even as late as the mid-20th century, the Axis governments believed Americans couldn't wield enough power to oppose the Axis because their multiculturalism would divide them against themselves. The United States proved both assessments incorrect.

As I said, the situation in 19th century America was very different from Europe today. And the Nazi's concerns were not based on the observation of actual social and cultural problems, but were based on racist ideology, assuming "racial purity" is a prerequisite for a strong society.

I do not believe any of these racist explanations. I just see we have severe problems due to immigration already, and we cannot afford unlimited additional immigration, because that would make solving the existing problems impossible. We have to integrate those immigrants who are already here first, and limit immigration to a number and to a certain group of people that allows us to catch up with integration efforts.

Quote

So maybe pessimism about what immigration can do to a country isn't warranted. Perhaps Europeans should welcome immigration, both to let diversity strengthen them and to reverse their population losses.

To an extent, I agree: What we do need is limited immigration. And we must be allowed to cherry-pick those immigrants we need, those we have a place for in our society and who can easily be integrated. For example, while we cannot allow unlimited immigration by low-qualified workers who will never find a job here, we should open our borders for a limited number of well-qualified experts -- because on many fields, there is high demand for well-qualified specialists.

I'm all against "walls" that keep out everybody. But we must control immigration, according to the question "will we be able to integrate this immigrant?"

Quote

That's an argument for curtailing the welfare state, which is another topic, not for stonewalling immigration.

But we like our welfare state. We believe it is a prerequisite for freedom. And it eases poverty, and thus reduces criminality -- maybe the welfare state is even cheaper than the costs we would have due to crime if there was no welfare state.

That's why even legal immigrants and asylum seekers have a right on limited welfare here. That's better and probably even cheaper than leaving them in poverty, which would then cause them to steal, rob and riot.

But that also means we cannot afford unlimited immigration.

This post has been edited by Sim: 13 April 2007 - 08:01 AM

[antiliberal]

Many say that the illegals come here to get jobs and work hard. For some, that is true. But for the most part, its all BS.

They say illegals come here to do the work we wont. The fact is the illegals drive down pay, THEN we dont want the jobs. How long till YOUR job falls into that category? Why should we lower our standards to support people that wont fix their own country?

They say we are racist for opposing ILLEGAL immigration. That is simply a desperate attack from people that know they cannot justify ILLEGAL immigration. However, if all these illegals were Caucasian, just like me, my position would NOT change. Seal the border, deport the illegals, regardless of race, or any other factor. See, the call opf racism is just silly.

They say deporting all these illegals would be impossible. BS. Stop giving them our jobs, our schooling and our medical services as rewards for breaking our laws. Watch them deport themselves. It is already happening in Arizona and will happen everywhere else it is tried.

Quote

Only if Mexico improves its economy and quality of life will we ever stop having problems with illegal immigration. (Consider, streams of Canadians don't flow across our northern border, since they enjoy prosperity.) So Americans who despise illegal immigration should concentrate their efforts on helping our neighbor to the south instead of devising policies that would cripple American businesses without solving anything.

Funny, American business was not crippled before illegal immigration got out of hand. Canadians do "stream" across the border when it comes to healthcare because of their miserable failure called "national health care." We did help our neighbor to the south. Remember NAFTA? Wasnt that Clintons big accomplishment as president besides committing perjury? The problem has gotten worse since.

The idea that we Americans should help other nations achieve freedom and democracy seems to be disliked by the left. And how would we help them? They have a corrupt socialist government. Dont tell me just ship them money and buy them off.

Fact is, illegal immigration is destroying this country. There is no argument that can stand FOR illegal immigration. It is simply outrageous to defend illegal immigration, unless you want to see this country destroyed.

How many of you are familiar with the fact that the Mexican army is stationed along Mexico's southern border?" Anyone wish to take a guess why?

End illegal immigration or end America. Its that simple.

This post has been edited by antiliberal: 21 February 2008 - 10:45 PM

[antiliberal]

Hello Little Sheeba!

Just wanted to point out some errors in your posts.

Quote

"Many think now just how sad it is about a country such as yours, once the very flower and symbol of freedom, truth, and libertys for it to be so deeply involved now in the muck and mire of deceit and lies purpetrated by your lying Commander in Chief."

That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. However, reality begs to differ. George W. Bush has not been proved a liar. I know millions of left wing websites said he lied. But that is not proof. Consider reality over emotion: If GWB had really lied about the war, and there was proof, would not the rabid dems in congress, desperate for revenge of Clintons impeachment, impeach Bush? Of course they would. It would be broadcast by the immense left wing media over and over. Neither has happened.

Quote

"Why did you not permit Bill Clinton to stay on as President???"

As stated above, we have laws against dictatorships, the Constitution.

Quote

"He was and still is loved by all people's world-wide, both he and the one who really won the 2000 u.s. presidential ellection President Al Gore."

He is not loved by the world. Most people remember him as a cheat and a liar, which was documented. Recently, he has shown how racist he can be with his remarks about B. Hussein Obama.

Al Gore did not "really" win the 2000 election. The President of the Senate has the power to, to call a presidential election re-counted and so forth. He could have stopped W's inauguration. He did not because he knew W won the election as per every re-count. By the way, the President of the Senate could have stopped the election was....(drum roll please).... Albert Gore Jr. Did you know that Little Sheeba?

Quote

"Well good on ya if you at least think about repealing that silly law of yours have on presidential term limits!?"

That "silly" law as you put it, has kept America from becoming a dictatorship. We will keep that law as it has served us well. I think you are showing you lack of knowledge when it comes to our laws. No insult intended, just an honest observation based on your comments.

By the way, what country are you from?

Quote

"Here's why and nothing personal against all you good hearted americans...President Bush Jr is your worst president in the last 150 years from what I have read and seen by his actions, I truly and honestly feel sorry for the good citizens of the still noble at heart USA!, and hope they find the greatness they once had, and renew the words of your "eeb-plab-nee-sta"...with meaning again."

Did you not read and see the mis-actions Carter administration? It is pretty much universally accepted that Carter was the worst American president ever.

If it were not for Clinton handling the peoples business (monica), and if he had dealt with terrorism under his watch instead of cheating and dishonesty, maybe 911 would never have happened. And let's not forget he passed on Bin Laden not once, but twice.

I realize you hate GWB, but your reasons are all wrong. Allowing millions of illegal immigrants to invade, rape, murder and displace American citizens is a real reason to dislike W. And even better, or worse, it is really true, unlike the painfully wrong statements you have made.

If you dislike W's policies, thats fine. But please, stop parroting lies you simply cannot prove.

This post has been edited by antiliberal: 21 February 2008 - 10:42 PM

[antiliberal]

Quote

"Ethnic cleansing--it's not just for tin-pot dictators and religious kooks anymore! wink.gif Now, some Americans advocate it as part of a "sensible" immigration policy."

I dont know anyone that is endorsing ethnic cleansing. However, law abiding Americans do not want criminals invading our country. To call them racists or "ethnic cleansers" is outrageous.

It is not our fault that most criminal invaders are latino. Just because we want these criminals stopped and deported, that does not make us racists or "ethnic cleansers."
As I have stated before, the racist-ethnic argument against those against illegal immigrantion, is simply to create an argument where none exists. For you folks that are FOR illegal immigration, you simply cannot justify your position. Calling others false names will not justify your position.

These people are coming here illegally. That pre-empts everything else. Until you pro illegal immigration people get that, you will simply continue to make fools of yourselves with statements like the one above, and below. If you change "dirty" to "illegal" it would make sense. But that would not create that false argument that is so important to your impossible to defend position.

Quote

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
Except for dirty Mexicans,
They can go home!"


"Portraying illegal immigrants as "dangerous" is populist fear-mongering to deflect attention from America's homegrown problems."

C'mon, lets get real. Illegal immigration IS a "homegrown problem." There is no fear mongering. Have you seen the list of crimes being committed by these illegal invaders against our citizens? Check out http://www.outragedpatriots.com/ to get just a small idea of what these people are doing to our country, citizens and CHILDREN.

There is no false portrait being created here. There is no populist fear mongering here. This is simply another false argument to support a position impossible to defend.

Illegal immigration is,....well illegal. That means it is wrong. Americans are 100% correct and justified to call for an end to this, and for illegals to be deported. There is simply no argument that can change this.

This post has been edited by antiliberal: 21 February 2008 - 10:44 PM

[Rorschach]

Yoda, on Apr 12 2007, 05:25 PM, said:

Maybe we should send them all to New Zealand. They know how to solve every problem. How many illegal immigrants do you have?

Hmm...All the non-indigenous white folks?