[Sim]

Yoda, on Jan 12 2006, 11:00 PM, said:

Support our president. Support our troops. Support freedom and democracy.

Freedom and democracy are very important values. When the terrorists cause us to sacrifice our freedom, they will have won. We must not let the terrorists win! We must not let them change our way of life! Because of that, I oppose George Bush. He sacrifices most important values of our civilization in the name of fighting terrorism, thus being a tool of the terrorists to change our way of life. The terrorists want us to be scared and afraid of them, so that we panic. We must not let this become reality.

Terrorism has to be fought -- but only with legal means, with means in accordance with the principles of our Western societies. Not with illegal prison camps where innocents are being held without the chance on a fair trial, without the NSA spying on innocent citizens, without abducting suspects and without torturing them.

Bush stands for all these violations of our principles. He gives in to the terrorists, by allowing fear to win over our reason.

[Jason Vines]

Yoda, on Jan 12 2006, 05:00 PM, said:

The relentless attack on our president continues.

Oh, how I weep for poor, persecuted Shrub! We shouldn't pick on the mentally challenged, after all.

Yoda said:

Somewhere, sometime we must face the dark forces of radical Islamic terrorism. If not now, when?

Fighting terrorism doesn't entail surrendering the core principles of our civilization. Without those values, nothing would distinguish us from them, and we'd have defeated ourselves in this "War on Terror."

We shouldn't let a horde of fanatical terrorist pissants transform our society into an Orwellian nightmare. Otherwise, every soldier who has bled, and every worker who has toiled, for the freedom of our nation would have done so for nothing. I can think of nothing so repugnant to the memory of our heroes as that.

Yoda said:

Only the passage of time can correctly assess the wisdom of that decision.

By which time, we couldn't do anything about it. How convenient for the government.

Yoda said:

Support our president... Support freedom and democracy.

Those two statements are contradictory. An unlimited executive who does whatever he wants, regardless of the highest laws of our land, stands in opposition to freedom and democracy. If you don't believe me, believe the founders of this country...

[Yoda]

What do I know. I'm just a dumb conservative not a Political Science Major. You shouldn't pick on the mentally challenged.

[Joshua]

Being a political science major does not in any way make your opinion more valuable. In fact, it doesn't even mean you're right. Political science is about the workings of government, and how politicians influence societal change. Unless I'm mistaken, majoring in political science does not mean you sit in a building for hours a day while the gods of wisdom enlighten you to the true path, while all others remain ignorant. It helps you understand the political process and the workings of our nation and other nation's governments, it doesn't make you some bastion of morality. Flinging around the title 'political science major' to back up propgana rings hollow.

This post has been edited by Joshua: 20 January 2006 - 07:32 PM

[Cymro]

Quote

you sit in a building for hours a day while the gods of wisdom enlighten you to the true path, while all others remain ignorant.

Have you been stalking me?

[Jason Vines]

Joshua, on Jan 20 2006, 07:31 PM, said:

Being a political science major does not in any way make your opinion more valuable. In fact, it doesn't even mean you're right. Political science is about the workings of government, and how politicians influence societal change. Unless I'm mistaken, majoring in political science does not mean you sit in a building for hours a day while the gods of wisdom enlighten you to the true path, while all others remain ignorant. It helps you understand the political process and the workings of our nation and other nation's governments, it doesn't make you some bastion of morality. Flinging around the title 'political science major' to back up propgana rings hollow.

That's right, although I don't think Yoda was claiming to be a poli sci major. She was talking about me.

In any event, let's stay on topic.

[Yoda]

I think the political science major would understand the political process more. They have to know the workings of our government and other nations' governments. They have to know constitutional law, judicial politics , U.S. foreign policy & military force, comparative politics, international relations, political philosophy & behavior, analysis of political systems, public policy, civics, theory. I could go on but I won't. They would be more informed than you and I who get our news from the bias new's media. I can tell that Jason has a love of politics and enjoys a good debate.

This post has been edited by Yoda: 21 January 2006 - 12:24 PM

[Yoda]

PREVENTION MATTERS To all those people whining about President George W. Bush's spying while trying to save their lives, I have a simple question: If the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks could have been prevented if the president had done then what he is now castigated for doing should he have done it?

[Joshua]

No, he still should not have done it. No event, regardless of how great a catastrophy it may be, warrants abandoning the principles that make our nation America. If ridiculously immoral and illegal activity could prevent some unforseen disaster, should we routinely conduct immoral and illegal activity?

This post has been edited by Joshua: 22 January 2006 - 05:03 PM

[Jason Vines]

Yoda, on Jan 22 2006, 04:42 PM, said:

PREVENTION MATTERS To all those people whining about President George W. Bush's spying while trying to save their lives, I have a simple question: If the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks could have been prevented if the president had done then what he is now castigated for doing should he have done it?

No, especially when he could easily have done the legal thing and gotten a FISA warrant. That is, if he's only going after terrorists, as he claims.

[Yoda]

Explain that to the family's of the 9-11 victoms who lost family members.

This post has been edited by Yoda: 22 January 2006 - 05:53 PM

[Sim]

Yoda, on Jan 22 2006, 11:52 PM, said:

Explain that to the family's of the 9-11 victoms who lost family members.

See it that way: The ban on torture is a threat to national security -- that is why we have to torture terror suspects. Respecting the ban on torture would allow the terrorists to kill many innocent Americans. That is why we do have to violate it.

Is the protection of privacy a threat to national security? Of course it is -- in order to find terrorists, we have to have the NSA spy on the citizens. Without doing that, the terrorists would be able to kill thousands of innocent citizens, so this violation of privacy is well justified.


Now think of it -- isn't the Constitution too a threat for national security? I mean all these articles for limiting the government's power, checks and balances and the separation of powers -- it only makes the task of seeking and destroying terrorist cells more difficult. If we absolished all constitutional rights, it would be possible to arrest civilians and let them disappear voluntarily. It would be very easy to seek and destroy terrorists. Terrorists would no longer be able to hide and cover behind the right of privacy, the right on fair trials, or any other right.

Basically, the only purpose of the Constitution is to protect terrorists. That's why this treasonous piece of paper needs to be abolished.

How many Americans will have to die because this "Constitution" is still enacted, before we do something about it, hm?

[Jason Vines]

Yoda, on Jan 22 2006, 05:52 PM, said:

Explain that to the family's of the 9-11 victoms who lost family members.

Explain your viewpoint to the many thousands more Americans who died so we could breathe free. Explain it to Benjamin Franklin, who said, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

In any event, any claim what Bush is doing could have prevented 9/11 is bogus. As I said, Bush could always turn to the FISA court for a warrant for legitimate terrorism investigations. He could even have sought warrants for actions up to 72 hours after they happened! Under no circumstances would Bush have needed to violate the Constitution. Since he did so, Bush is either 1) stupid or 2) lying. Either way, he's not fit to remain in office.

[Joshua]

Explain to the families of those killed on 9/11 why the president is using their loved one's demise as an excuse to defecate on the constitution of the United States of America.

This country was founded on the ideals of unalienable rights. Our constitution is a declaration of those rights. To violate it is wholly anti-american.

This post has been edited by Joshua: 22 January 2006 - 08:23 PM

[Yoda]

Circumstances are not the same now. Benjamin Franklin can go fly a kite. Thats way way in the past. He didn't know about terrorist or nucular danger. We are in the here and now. I don't care about the constitution one rats ass if we can save one life. What good is the constitution if we are all dead.

[Joshua]

Right. The constitution means nothing. American values don't mean jack. Cause that's what america is all about... Covering your own ass.

Consider the fact that conservatives dismiss the 'that was then this is now' argument as wholly illegitamite when talking about the 2nd amendment, the right to bear arms.

Now, if someone used the 'that was then this is now' argument against Jesus, many people would be up in arms.

This post has been edited by Joshua: 22 January 2006 - 08:36 PM

[Bondo]

Yoda, on Jan 22 2006, 07:53 PM, said:

What good is the constitution if we are all dead.

Oh my.... That really is a license to do anything. Also, the risk of infiltration was likely higher in Ben Franklin's time than it is today.

[Yoda]

How many times a day do you talk to Al-Qaida? If the answer is none, you have nothing to worry about. The elitist media have assumed that the evil 'dictator' George W. Bush has ordered all Americans to be spied on. No one is safe! The black helicopters will be pulling people out of their beds at night for misdemeanor crimes cought by the National Security Agency. Our liberties will be gone as we know it. These fears exemplify why liberal Democrats are dangerous for this country. Liberal Democrats are willing to risk catastrophe on American soil to fight this enemy with police action. Liberals fail to grasp the danger of our enemies. They think Bush is a bigger enemy.

[Joshua]

We have people imprisoned in Guantanamo bay held without charges or access to a lawyer. US citizens are being profiled because of their religion. When freedom anywhere in our country is threatened, freedom everywhere is jeapordized. Simply because we do not conduct illegal activity does not mean our rights can be freely violated.

Right now, "Liberal Democrats" are the ones fighting to keep our country America.

Conservative Republicans are creating public fear over a highly publicized but minimally dangerous threat. The fact of the matter is, you're more likely to be struck by lightning than even injured by a terorist. Now, that's not to say terrorism shouldn't be taken seriously, just that conservatives are vastly exaggerating their capabilities to instill fear in the people. They are creating a false fear to control our country and destroy our constitution. They would have our country turned into a miniature version of Stalin's Russia, where the citizens have no rights and the government is completely free of accountability for their immoral and illegal actions. That's why conservative republicans are dangerous for this country. Right now, the Bush administration is a greater threat to american freedoms than any ragtag band of insurgents in the middle east. The insurgents in Iraq are not terorists. They are insurgents. They post no threat to anyone living in America today. Their only victims have been those unjustly occupying their country and those caught in the crossfire. They have never done any damage to american soil. As much as I despise their tactics and their fundamentalism, I beleive Bush is a greater threat to American freedoms than they are.

[Yoda]

I was wondering where I could get access to all your reliable information.

This post has been edited by Yoda: 23 January 2006 - 07:39 PM